hence a "Mikha'il" won't be Muslim

Actually, I personally know at least two Muslims whose name is Mikha'il. That one can be classified as ambiguous as well I guess.

My question is why, in all news accounts, it seems every Iraqi is named Jassem or some variant thereof?

I don't understand the nomenclature totally, but I notice among my Christian Lebanese relatives that there are many Arabic names also used by Muslims: Fouad, Selim, Khalil, Nabil, Jamil, Jamal and so forth. My own name is ambiguous until you get the middle name (Elias); the hometown confuses people involved with the Palestinian movement because it's the site of a prominent camp. Lebanese get it, though. Yes, even without my middle name, the home village tells Lebanese volumes - not just religion but sect and social class.

A story about names: one of the families in our village goes by the name Dib, which means Wolf. My father was telling me a story about the Dibs, and mentioned that they used to be called Tooma - Thomas. Oh really? --Yes, they changed their family name. Why? --Because they thought Tooma was too Jewish.

This seemed ironic to me, the American, that a whole family would change its name from Thomas to Wolf in order to sound LESS JEWISH. Wolf in America is a name that would lead people to think you might be Jewish - Thomas, never.

Go figure.

Toom'ah in Hebrew means "impure." But it's never used as a name for obvious reasons.

I wonder why this family would've thought that Tooma or even Thomas would be Jewish. After all, Thomas was a disciple of Jesus wasn't he?

People do the strangest things for the strangest reasons.

"Toom'ah in Hebrew means "impure." But it's never used as a name for obvious reasons.

"I wonder why this family would've thought that Tooma or even Thomas would be Jewish. After all, Thomas was a disciple of Jesus wasn't he?"

A Jewish disciple, yes. So it must have been used as a name at least once.

"I wonder why this family would've thought that Tooma or even Thomas would be Jewish. Thomas was a disciple of Jesus wasn't he?"

Um, not to get to too pedantic, but Jesus' apostles were all Jewish. As was the big guy himself.

Though I suspect that that wasn't the basis for the sounds-like-it-could-be business.

Back to pedantry, the origin of the name Thomas is Aramaic, apparently the word for twin, Ta'uma.

Dear Shaheen,

are those two Muslim Mikha'ils Iraqi? I never came across Muslim Iraqis with such obvious Christian names. In other countries/regions that might be different.

Dear Matthew,

Jasim is a typical Iraqi (& Kuwaiti) name. In every country there are some names that seem to be overrepresented. But sometimes what happened to you might just be coincidence. It happens. Example: For years on end, every single Jordanian I met was named Muhammad, even inside Jordan...

Dear Leila,

what you pointed out for Lebanon would fall under #5. There are lots of Arabic names that are "non-denominational", if you will. Of course, it differs by region. A name used by Muslims, Christians, and Druze in Lebanon might be one only used by Muslims in Iraq.

As I pointed out, Lebanon is the mothership of "identify the sect". Those coming from non-mixed places are easiest to label. All others have undergo the "3 questions" test.

Dear all,

While, obviously, all of Jesus' disciples had Judeo-Aramaic or Greek names, it is interesting that some of the biblical names have become - and after the Muslim invasion stayed - "Christian" (like Toma, Yohanna, Hanna, Butros, Bulos, Mikha'il) while others have been adopted by Muslims and are now "non-denominational" (like Yusuf).

--MSK

MSK,

One is Tunisian, the other one is a French Arab (of Algerian or Tunisian origin I would guess).

In answer to Leila, Elias is also used by Muslims - in the Maghreb at least.

Dear Shaheen,

yeah, that would explain it. As I said - my post was about Iraq.

Yet another argument against that silly notion of a uniform Muslim, or even just Arab, culture/society.

--MSK

Another issue in Iraq are those of mixed sunni-shia origins. The numbers of mixed marriages may not be numerically huge but it's certainly not unheard in the cities.

I'm of mixed Sunni-Shia Iraqi Arab origins. My first name is very shi'i in Lebanon, very alwai in Syria (this was a major pain in the arse) and very shi'i in Iraq. My surname has strong Sunni clerical overtones. This usually puts people into a state of confusion as they safely assume my shi'ism in my first name but are confused by the stark contrast with the surname. I do sometimes feel like I should be waging a one man civil war against myself.

To mix it up even more my brother has an arabic name usually associated with Christians (not of a Butrus or Boulos vintage though), while my other brother has a non-denominational Arabic name. Overall I think my parents were just taking the piss really.

MSK-
'it is interesting that some of the biblical names have become - and after the Muslim invasion stayed - "Christian" ... while others have been adopted by Muslims and are now "non-denominational"'

It's not that interesting. The biblical names which are also used by Muslims are the ones usually found in the Quran. You mentioned Yosef. There's also Zakaria, Ya'kob, Yahya (aka Yohanna), Mariam etc. It's nothing to do with any Muslim invasion.

I guess you'd have to know a little bit of Shia/Sunni history to realise why certain first names are underrepresented in one sect or the other.
A Shia usually won't be:
Omar, Othman, Abu Bakr, Yazid, Abdul Rahman, Khalid, Aisha, Mus'ab or any of the people usually thought of as Salaf.
A Sunni usually won't be:
Ali, Hussain, Redha, Ali Akbar, Ja'far, Mahdi, Mohammed Ali, Mortadha, Hashem or any of the people usually thought of as Ahl Albait. An exception is Sunni's of Hashemite heritage.

Dear Ali,

the stress is on "usually".

Your examples are the classic ones, which I referred to under #6.

Of course, apart from the fact that "Abu Bakr" isn't a name one gives a child (it just doesn't work), there are local/regional differences. As I pointed out, because of Saddam Hussein there are many Sunni Iraqis named Hussein.

And the vast majority of given names in Iraq (and the rest of the Mashriq) are non-specific, that is the bearer could be either Sunni or Shi'ite or even Christian.

And as the original question was "Can one tell from the name?", the answer remains "Except for some clear-cut cases, no."

--MSK

MSK-
'the stress is on "usually"'

Indeed that's why it's there. I am not arguing against any of what you said. Just thought to give a bit of explanation.

There are actually people named Abu Bakr.

And of course the whole Sunni-Shia name divide breaks down in the Maghreb where the Shia divisions died out long ago. Maghrebines seem to have a hard time understand Shia and Sunni actually, on the gut level.

Lounsbury,

definitely. E.g. most of the "Ahl Albait names" are extremely common in the (traditionally Sunni) Maghreb...

Dear Ali,

Your explanation is very much appreciated. All in all - this is a very productive discussion thread.

As for "There are actually people named Abu Bakr" - some people just stop at nothing ... I can remember that name from "the olden times" - but these days? Seriously? Is it one of those things for which we can blame "those weird Maghrebis"?

--MSK

I would blame it on non-Arabic speakers, mate. Don't be a narrow minded araoubi snob.

The Lounsbury is absolutely right on the total breakdown of the fine theories on sunni and shi'i first names - being a muslim Moroccan (there are a few jewish Moroccans as well, and the law acknowledges the existence of non-jewish and non-muslim Moroccans), and thus a sunni, I have Ali, Jaafar, Reda and Mehdi among my close parents, and two of my best friends are Aboubakr (or Boubker in the local version). And yes, the distinction between sunnis and shi'i is about as clear in the mind of the average Moroccan as the distinction between jacobites and melkites in the mind of the average Swede. Having had shi'i friends abroad, I've often had to rebutt assumptions that shi'i aren't muslims, that they don't believe in the Prophet, that they don't read the Koran, etc...

I suppose this abysmal ignorance about the shi'i evens out the Machrek arabs' abysmal ignorance of all things Maghrebi...

"the distinction between sunnis and shi'i is about as clear in the mind of the average Moroccan as the distinction between jacobites and melkites in the mind of the average Swede."

The distinction may not be clear in their minds but that doesn't mean there isn't one, as you pointed out in your examples. If it is in the sense that Shias are viewed as a distinct group then the divide does not break down in the Maghreb at all. It's the silly names business that does.

This reminds of Zacarias Moussaoui. The name Moussaoui (or Mousawi) is classic Shia in Lebanon or Iraq.

Ali K

Afraid there really isn't in the minds of most Maghrebines a distinction between Shia and Sunni. Since they haven't grown up with that, the division is as Ibn Kafka notes, either doesn't exist in their heads (Muslims are Muslims....) or they believe queer things the short-thobed ones pimp in their neo-Salafi preaching.

As for "There are actually people named Abu Bakr" - some people just stop at nothing ... I can remember that name from "the olden times" - but these days? Seriously? Is it one of those things for which we can blame "those weird Maghrebis"

Probably, yes. I've met several people from the Maghreb area whose proper names were Abou Bakr or Boubkeur. Plus there seems to be lots of non-Arab Boubkeurs in Senegal and the rest of French W. Africa.

Speaking of Zacarias, I've heard that the Syrian authorities used to stamp the ID cards of Syrian Jews "Musawi", for Moses (Mussa). If someone could explain the ins and outs of Judeo-Arab naming conventions I'd love to see more on that. What names do Sephardi Jews from Arabic-speaking societies have in common with Arab neighbours? And has this changed a lot since 48? Would Haroun ar-Rachid still be a kosher name for a Caliph in Baghdad?

to alle:

i wonder if it depends on where the jewish arab came from? a lot of iraqi jewish families seem to be kurdish. my fam, not from arab country but from iran, is still mixed with kurdish and arabic, though is actually aramaic.

with mizrachis today, the young ones usually don't have real arabic sounding names, they're more hebrew. but thats not necessarily a new thing- a lot of the old ones have classic hebrew names as well. some of the older ones have a situation in which they were renamed.

for my grandmother, that's what happened at least. there were different orphanages for mizrachis at that time, and they renamed them to hebrew names. My grandmother was named Maisun, which I think is Arabic (I've met Palestinans with that name). Her sister was Almas (I think thats Kurdish?), their brothers were Shimon and some other things I don't recall. BUut my grandmother (and then me) grew up Aliza, an "old-fashioned" Israeli name.

It must all be a pendulum of acculturation, though. Her mother (my great grandmother) was named Sarah (real name, not Israeli named). Maybe then the kids got names that weren't blatantly Jewish- perhaps as that family got acculturated? And then, in Israel, the kids were given Hebrew names by the govt/authorities if young enough, and those that were old enough to keep their real names gave Hebrew names to their kids.

I've met other Arabic Jews with a variety of names. It's really the older ones with the Arabic-sounding names. One from-Syria guy named Rami. Rami is a commonish Israeli name- it sounds good in Hebrew too. Moroccan family named Funni, but he is Moroccan from way back, generations in Israel. Another Shimon. A famous name I can think of is Sami Michael, the Israeli author from Iraq. Sami Shalom Chetreet is a famous mizrachi guy from these days- I dont know where he's born though. Yemenite family have typical Jewish names- Naomi, Noam, Elifaz, Sarah.

RE unique Arabic names- Abubakr is quite a load, but yeah, I met some kids with that name in France. The uniquest name I ever met, though, was in Egypt. A sweet little 15 year old named--- get this--- ABU ALA AL-MA'ARI. (after a famous, really amazing, but kinda dark and depressing poet)

The father was very unique. But talk about a load on a kid.

Dear alle,

Harun (a.k.a. Aron) was a prophet mentioned in the Qur'an, so the rule for Yusuf/Zakaria/Maryam applies to Harun as well.

And Harun al-Rashid would be a perfect (and 100% halal) name for any caliph anywhere ... except that it's next to impossible to live up to.

It is a bit like asking if George Washington is an acceptable name for a U.S. president.

--MSK

PS: On Jews in the Arab world, this site is currently making the rounds: www.thejewsoflebanon.org