Interesting topic. Though perhaps you put too much emphasis on the US "green card" -- my experience, from living in the region (though not in Jordan), is that these relationships occur between Middle Eastern men and women from a variety of nationalities: British, Canadian, Australian, Dutch, Italian, whatever. I never noticed that American citizenship was especially coveted.

Sigh...true love.

It would have been interesting to see how a 16-year-old would meet the legal income and asset requirements necessary to apply for a spousal green card. I can't imagine her parents would be thrilled about becoming additional sponsors.

For that matter, is there a minimum legal marriage age in Palestine? Or would her parents have to consent to the marriage if she is a minor? Or is it one of those issues that is easily gotten around somehow or another?

Sigh...this kind of thing takes me back to previous adventures with marriage fraud cases, though I can't remember one for anyone nearly that young.

i have two friends who are in similar perdicaments at the moment. a bloody shame they're blinded by love. it's quite clear what the guys want out of it.

not saying that it can't be real and good but it rarely is.

Well, perhaps not so bad if both parties know where they stand (as in, mutual awareness that relationship is not driven primarily by romance/love).

It's the deception/delusion part that's problematic for me.

E: my thoughts exactly.

the idealists really get me down.

dear eva,

i should think that there's a legal minimum age for marriage in EVERY country. there definitly is one in every MENA country.

palestine:

"West Bank - 15 female, 16 male under the JLPS; Gaza Strip- LFR 1954 required puberty and made 9 (female) and 12 (male) minimum ages; Palestinian Qadi al-Quda issued administrative decision in 1995 raising these to 15 female and 16 male. All ages by lunar years."

Source: http://www.law.emory.edu/IFL/legal/palestine.htm (emphasis mine)

why don't you guys ever run a simple google search? i'm seriously thinking about charging $$$ for this.

cheers,

--raf*

Speaking of cross-border marriages gone wrong...

why don't you guys ever run a simple google search? i'm seriously thinking about charging $$$ for this.

Don't bother, no one will pay. There are plenty of people with spare time who will dig up trivia for free (or already know the answer).

raf* dear - I run google searches all the time, but there is a limit to how much time I can devote to that stuff while I'm, you know, at work.

Besides, even if the government sets a minimum legal age for marriage, some countries find that it isn't terribly useful in practical terms for preventing child marriages.

dear dw,

serves those saudis right. if you want "halal prostitution" (& that's exactly what that is), then no sympathies.

dear eva,

the initial question was not about government's inclination to prevent child marriages. actually - you didn't have to go all the way to rajasthan, west virginia would've sufficed.

don't try to play the "but look over there!" card. ... you asked about minimum age in palestine - i provided the information. i was actually quite surprised that you - who works with immigrants - questioned the very existance of a legal minimum age for marriage in palestine.

cheerio,

--raf*

raf* - I'm not into playing games. I can't remember the last time I dealt with a Palestinian in my work capacity, let alone one with an underage bride. (The last time I dealt with Palestinians, in my work capacity, there was no officially recognized Palestinian government.) And in any case, I can't think of a circumstance in which I would have dealt with an underage bride in a country with a minimum marriage age; a requirement for a marriage-based green card application in the vast majority of situations is a government-issued marriage certificate (a religious one alone won't suffice, unless the government in question doesn't officially register marriages). So if the government wouldn't issue a marriage certificate, then there is no marriage-based green card application, and therefore no marriage fraud hearing.

(Not that I would have been present for a merits hearing on a marriage fraud-based deportation case for a Palestinian anyway, seeing as I don't speak Arabic and all.)

I know plenty of cases of mixed marriages, happy and successful. So many of my acquaintances are just in such families, with parents from different cultures or within mixed marriages themselves.

Not to say this was the case for the Palestinian guy and the American teenager, but I wouldn't go to the cynical conclusion that it's all about that in a majority of cases. In fact, both are common. Visa gigolos are very common indeed. But so are true relationships.

Ultimately, eerie is right. It's the deception part that is a problem. They are common enough to discredit all other potential relations, no matter their real proportion.

There's something I resent here. When you're an Arab guy, you always start some meters behind on the race track. You have that liability to remove first, being identified a priori as a macho, a visa gigolo, an irrational fanatic, as being violence inclined, you name it. Those who reinforce the stereotypes by acting accordingly should be recycled into natural manure as far as I'm concerned. But I also dislike it when people fall in the trap and tend to generalize, and end up putting such a liability on the Arab Male.

Shaheen - it's not just the Arab Male who is too frequently, by default, assumed to be up to no good in a situation such as this one; anytime there is a standard of living imbalance in country of origin, the issue likely arises in the minds of the friends and relatives of the would-be spouse from the more prosperous country (it sure did when my cousin married a Mexican woman with an expired visa, that's for sure). And let's all keep in mind that there are even people who, presented with the chance to move to/stay in the U.S. via marriage to a U.S. citizen, turn it down because they don't want to leave their country for good, even ones who would have a quite bright future in their adopted country.

(Not that I'm still bitter about it or anything, noooo, not at all.)

Shaheen --

I see your point and I regret the communication of overgeneralization, though concededly the visa gigolo is the one stereotype I tend not to immediately downplay or nuance. Still to put it correctly: many such cross cultural relationships work, even, in many cases where the immigration issue was a high consideration at first.

It's just that there are too many starry -eyed victims in my experience to let it go unremarked, people who emerge damaged and feeling a tad raped, to use a harsh term. Some of the worst victims have been Arab-American females.

I also will sympathize with the "visa gigolo" on some level -- such a person comes from a place of limited opportunity, often has a family-wide high-pressure socioeconomic responsibility (e.g. being an eldest brother), sees Americans who do not, in his eyes, appreciate the economic opportunities they have, and do not appear to respect the things he does -- family, propriety, etc. And are part of a society he sees as hostile.

He also sees a barrier to opportunity which is to some degree (immigration barriers) artifical and malicious - laden with class and cultural and race biases. In many cases too, such persons have mixed motives and are willing to give a real relationship a real try. Some that start out, out of opportunism, actually succeed and produce lovely children. Arab, and other underdeveloped country males, didn't invent the idea of "marrying up" for opportunity, or marrying with an economic motive foremost. But initial skepticism is justified, and the example of the girl is the extreme illustration, but I was impressed how unremarked the obvious was.

I've never been a staunch opponent of non-bigoted non-harassing sane ethnic profiling. If I were in an Arab country (and I have been in the following situation) -- an American white guy speaking some Arabic, knowing and interested in the local economics and politics, not directly affiliated with some specific purpose, and (this part is hypothetical) the reliable word is that there are CIA agents here to cause civil unrest, I would expect to be focussed on for a bit. That remains true, even though there is also a widespread bigoted anti-Americanism in the Middle East that expects every regionally interested American to be a spy.

dagger aleph --

YOur point on overemphasizing the American route is valid. I was using the story and my own experience (and recalling a comment in Edward Said how during his visit to Palestine he found noteworthy how everyone wanted to find an American bride to get a visa), though I do find that the United States is by virtue of several factors, including a relatively good entrepreneurial environment, very high overall wealth, a highly favored destination.

Eva, Matthew,

Your point is valid and knowing how common deceptive behaviors can occur, I understand it perfectly that a rational look as such marriages is often necessary. I would go one step further and say that even with good intentions, mixed marriages require a mindset where the partners are looking for a "different Other", not looking for your classical "soul mate", to make it work out.

My point though is that, by emphasizing the phenomenon of visa gigolos without reminding that there are also equally successful marriages, you reinforce that liability I'm speaking about. Kind of like speaking for hours about the evil Muslim terrorists among us, then throwing "Oh, but the majority of Muslims are peaceful" bone. In the end, the impression it leaves favor reflexes going into the direction of "Arab men are guilty until proven innocent" instead of having a cool headed analysis of each case.

Let's look at the other side of the tracks here. A lot of the 'starry-eyed victims', especially from southern united states, are looking for a way out themselves by marrying what was in their minds 'a wealthy arab'. If we are going by experience, then this kind is what I find most common.

Personally, I feel that the arab male view is under-represented here at aquol. And as such, the arab woman stereotype of the submissive kept victim is challened almost at every opportunity, whereas the corresponding male stereotype is at best ignored (except in regards to terrorism) and at worst enforced. I still remember meph's comment about being 'the last person to give any arab man any credit'.

Matthew-
Re ethnic profiling. I think you are mixing issues here. I hardly think that being suspected of being a CIA agent in a foreign country is anything like - and I'll borrow shaheen's list - "being identified a priori as a macho, a visa gigolo, an irrational fanatic, as being violence inclined". The most important difference is that it is non-invasive and it is not likely to matter much anyway.
I'm all for ethnic profiling at airports because, let's face it, it is practical and even if there is resentment it should rightfully be directed at those who made it happen in the first place. But ethnic profiling by the average guy in the street - even if 'non-bigoted and non-harassing' - is nothing short of prejudice.

ya ali,

being thought of as a spy only because one is white by the average hassan on the street IS exactly the kind of prejudice you so (rightly) bemoan.

as for your impression that "the arab male view is under-represented here at aquol" - apart from it being aqOUl, i would assert that a lot of views are "under-represented" here. meph is an arab woman - but obviously her comment is not representative of "all arab women".

why don't you write a post & send it in? i'm all for it. you'd have to check with the "bosses", though.

cheers,

--raf*

Raf-

"being thought of as a spy only because one is white by the average hassan on the street IS exactly the kind of prejudice you so (rightly) bemoan."

Yes I agree with that. I actually wrote something to that effect, but decided against it because I felt it distracted from the argument.

So there's no Equal Opportunity visa whoring in Jordan?

I did hear that there are women in places like Morocco or Tunisia that do visa whore. However sometimes it comes back to haunt them. For example the recent case of some Belgian journalist who went down to Morocco and taped porn movies of women who he promised to marry and bring over to Belgium. Is there stuff like this also happening in places like Lebanon and Egypt? Just curious...

Well, Ali, I think that it is hard to differentiate between whacking away at say stereotyping of the region and "Muslims"/Arabs generally and "Arab men" specifically.

The women theme that emerged of late has some specific roots in a particular set of authors (notably the Wafa et al group).

Of course, re prejudice issue, that's complicated. The spy assumption, I may add as someone regularly accused (and quite a range I may add, Brit intel, American intel, Israeli, etc) due to the queer and eccentric acquisition of Arabic and several dialects, is tedious and sometimes even dangerous. Generally amusing though. Mentally draining is the walking bank assumption, although objectively in comparison there is truth there.

Regardless, your fine Aqoul editors (to abuse the word) are happy to have submissions.

Thanks for the invitation L. I actually have an idea I've been kicking around in my head but couldn't put to words. It is about the difference between old terrorism (from libya, hamas, hezbollah, iran, syria, etc.) and new terrorism (or neo-terrorism; everything else has a neo these days) which is alqaeda and its ilk. The difference being that old terrorism has a definite hierarchy and structure , with defined (if unreasonable) objectives. This has a lot in common with other terrorist networks the world over.

Now all this is not new, except that in a lot of cases these two groups are lumped together under the header of islamist terror (islamofascism if you like) which unless you prefer looking at things from an ideological perspective does you no favours at all in practical terms. This happens most notably in iraq where there is a mix of these 'militia type' groups and alqaeda type groups.

Most dangerous, however, is that even though western nations have suffered recently from neo-terrorism (9/11, madrid, 7/7 to name a few) I feel that most efforts and resources have been directed to combatting and antagonising old terrorism (iran and syria namely) - in defiance to the scale of threat. Instead of focusing on the current centres of neo-terrorism, algeria and pakistan.

Oh wait, there I've said it. No need for a post after all.

On this question I think Shaheen and myself are probably the best to comment:

I did hear that there are women in places like Morocco or Tunisia that do visa whore. However sometimes it comes back to haunt them. For example the recent case of some Belgian journalist who went down to Morocco and taped porn movies of women who he promised to marry and bring over to Belgium. Is there stuff like this also happening in places like Lebanon and Egypt? Just curious...

First, in the Maghreb, the atttudes towards exogamous (out of group) marriage is generally far, far, far more liberal than in the Machriq (comparing like group to like, as in urbanites of lower middle class to urbanites of lower middle class).

I have fond memories of some years back, travelling with my Maghrebine girlfriend of the time in a Moroccan train, to the city of Fes, and sharing a cabin with an old conservative looking pair of ladies who at some point worked up the courage to interrogate my chica (without knowing I speak the language). The conversation was amusingly supportive of the chica's choice in corrupt expat boys - generally Maghrebine families don't seem to have much problem with intermarriage and little or no complex about even the women contracting "mixed marriage" although at least nominal conversion is expected. Not that this is unique to Maghrebine Muslims, of course.

Re Machreqi attitudes, generally speaking with the exception perhaps of Beirut, are far, far more disapproving - I'd call them tribalistic or clannish if that word sits better.

I am not sure I like the phrasing "visa whoring" as (i) it strikes as moderately inaccurate, (ii) leads to confusion over actual 'working girls' and merely try to hook a handsome passport to another life, (iii) ends up being rather judgemental with respect to the girls, but not the hombres engaged in similar searches.

Re the Belgian incident, that appears to have been a case of outright explitation of "working girls" in the southern city of Agadir, where the confluence of deeply impoverished countryside with a fairly degerate tourist culture of besotted North Europeans (as well as Khalijis, although Agadir is not their particular cup of Araq), and little other real economic opportunity has some generated quite a little prostitution industry. Of course the same exists in other Maghrebine cities. Money. While the post-arrest story of many girls was that they had been promised marriage, etc., I have my doubts.

Of course, pay for play in some instances is not to exclude also angling for a marriage of some sort to a Euro not as uptight as the local boys about virginity. I'll recall for you that Honour Crimes as such are basically unknown in the Maghreb, but the virgin marriage prejudice is fairly strongish.

Well, Ali, I didn't quite follow you.

You're batting about the sensation that too much State response to terror groups is structured to respond to 70s era style State sponsored or backed formal structures, rather than the perhaps more 'viral' or amaebic structure of the modern takfiri al-Qaeda structure?

An interesting argument to make.

You might better be served, however, by focusing on the recruitment/non-recruitment versus internal dialogue angle among, say, Arab (or other) young male community(ies). A la those Canadians nabbed 2 weeks ago or so.

Yes I guess that's what I was 'batting' for, except not exactly. I haven't had time to gather my thoughts on this. They are not choosing to battle the new groups with the methods used for the old groups, although that is part of it. They are choosing to continue battling the old groups with more ferocity even though they are of less threat to them, whilst relegating responsiblity for the new groups to their respective local governments, e.g. pakistan.
I am not proposing to know what should be done, it is just an observation that this way of doing things is not working.

Re this:
"You might better be served, however, by focusing on the recruitment/non-recruitment versus internal dialogue angle among, say, Arab (or other) young male community(ies). A la those Canadians nabbed 2 weeks ago or so."
I don't feel I am best suited to deal with this issue. I am not all that familiar with the internal dialogues of muslim communities in europe since they are mostly south asian/turkish/maghrebine.
I will say this though: a large part of the problem is first generation immigrants themselves, who are usually leaving the bottom of the economic and educational ladder in their original countries. You won't find a lot of extremist recruitment in say for example iranian/lebanese/iraqi descendants because the profiles of immigrants are usually the opposite - people who had enough money and skills to leave their country in times of crisis.

The other issue is that the reasons for joining extremist organisations are not the same for young eurpean born youths and their mena born equivalent. I would say that it has a lot to do with uniquely european attitudes for example individualism and identity politics, whereas this hardly registers on the other side.

Did I just say young youths?

Follow up for raf*