ya abu l-maal,

dammit - i KNEW i should've gone into law & finance! ah ... the sins of our youth come back to haunt us ...

--raf*

Doesn't the exalted Amr Khaled serve as a freelance advisor for Islamic banking? Do you suppose the natty suit-wearing new televangelists have a jump on the old shaykhs in this regard?

dear sp,

amr khaled is a trained accountant. but i think he is used mainly to sell products to customers, i.e. if he says a certain bank's "islamic finance" products are alright then lots of his followers will chose that particular bank for their "islamic" transactions.

so - it's a very "amr khaled"-specific situation to have someone with a credible technocratic background and "islamic" credentials.

but he is no trained faqih/'aalim, so he cannot, for example give fatwas on certain practices or businesses.

--raf*

Ah yes, I had forgotten the accountant bit...makes sense. Thanks!

The Saudis must be proficient in rationalizing interest and profit in Islamic ways, no? With their stockmarket and investments in US bonds? I know precious little about finance so perhaps someone can enlighten.

Raf,

but he is no trained faqih/'aalim, so he cannot, for example give fatwas on certain practices or businesses

Yet he's got an audience who'd follow his words like those of no faqih, and who doesn't care about his formal training. I dislike Amr Khaled, but he's a living proof that even in Sunni Islam, you don't need formal training to have your opinions taken seriously, n'en déplaise to the traditionalists. The khilafa is no more, so you don't need any formal background to have some state endorse your fatwas anymore. Your fatwas are just as good as your ability to sell them.

L,

However some investment banks say they have paid up to $500,000 for advice

Muslim scholars for hire. This aspect of the article really gave me a good laugh. I mean, telling a devout Muslim "scholar Fulan has been paid to say product Kadha is halal" would completely discredit the scholar, no matter the respect he inspired.

pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is the salafi perspective on fatwa giving? Does one need an education and position? Are they the same as in traditional/conservative islam? If yes, then an islamic financial education must be two times the work.

(I seem to remember that Usama bin Laden's fatwa blasting made him look laughable to the religious establishment, salafis included.)

Well, good to see questions on something besides sex.

The Saudis must be proficient in rationalizing interest and profit in Islamic ways, no? With their stockmarket and investments in US bonds? I know precious little about finance so perhaps someone can enlighten.

Profit is not a problem in Islam, questions arise with respect to "interest" / "usury."

Well, also there is the generic moral question that any devout investor (Xian, Jewish, Muslim) may face in investing in activities said investor considers "wrong."

But that's not specifically Islamic per se, only some of the detials about what is considered wrong (e.g. a devout Jewish investor may not give a fuck about wine production, but may not wish to put his money into pig farming; the devout Muslim investor may wish to avoid alcohol production - although some devout investors may well say "I'm not engaging in sin investing in say pig production that is sold to non-[Jews/Muslims]" for example).

So, focusing on the specific Islamic problem of interest, equity investing in the US market (or European markets, etc) doesn't pose any problem at all (other than a generic problem that the religion takes a dim view of 'speculation' - but again this is generic).

Investment in traditional bonds, of course, is another matter entirely.

Insofar, however, as the Saudi system is not purely 'Islamic" but rather has traditional components - which in fact are extensive - rather clearly plenty of Saudis with money adopt a less than conservative view on financing issues.

Finally on the question "the Salafi" view on "fatwa" issuance, well, there isn't a single view. I would say that generically that it is all about demonstrating "skill" and building up a reputation. Demonstrate a command of the subject matter....

Re Osama, well such were the claims. I would take pronouncements in this area with a grain of salt, one way or the other.

Typically, you use "Wahhabi" or "ostentatiously pious" to describe basic requirements of Islam. For example, there is a consensus among scholars - both Shia and Sunni - that selling pork is prohibited. (Let me guess... you're going to respond by calling me a Wahhabi, sort of the way Zionists use the "anti-Semite" label.)

Have you defined how you use these terms anywhere? Because it's not clear what you mean by "devout", either. Your use of the word reminds me of the way the U.S. media uses it; during the coverage of King Hussein's funeral, anything that his family did was considered, by defnition, to be the mark of a "devout" Muslim.

Salafis do have a different methodology for coming up with fatwas. This is generalizing of course, but in general, and in varying degrees, they reject 1000 years of Islamic scholarship in the four madhabs and say that they can go back to the Quran and Sunnah and come up with their own fatwas.

Also, there are some Muslim societies where bright students are pushed into medicine or engineering, and studying shariah is not considered very impressive. I don't think this is so true in the Gulf, though.

"Also, there are some Muslim societies where bright students are pushed into medicine or engineering, and studying shariah is not considered very impressive. I don't think this is so true in the Gulf, though."

I don't know about kuwait, but what you describe happens in saudi. Not because of any pushing, but to study sharia one has to enroll in a sharia track in highschool. Generally speaking, those who end up in the sharia track are the ones whose grades don't qualify them for the science track. So yes I would say studying sharia is not considered impressive, not to mention that sharia graduates are more likely not to find a job or a university placing.

Those who go on to university, however, will usually work as non-science/math teachers. The other jobs available are muttawa or imams/muezzens in mosques.

Interesting filtering process.

A question that's been occupying my mind is how the entrepeneurial spirit is in MENA. I recently read this on BBC about Turkish 'Calvinism':

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4788712.stm

Is there a 'can do' attitude, or a 'can't do anything beyond a grocer'? How do the different muslim denominations factor into this?

I may be thinking about the co-existence of faith and personal profit here. Possibly some Hindu faith lines and Jainism don't like worldly wealth, passing on that attitude to their followers. In Catholic Europe, many monasteries drove businesses, usually cheese and/or wine, giving rise to the Fat Friar stereotype. And so on.

Well, my dear little twit is back:
Typically, you use "Wahhabi" or "ostentatiously pious" to describe basic requirements of Islam. For example, there is a consensus among scholars - both Shia and Sunni - that selling pork is prohibited. (Let me guess... you're going to respond by calling me a Wahhabi, sort of the way Zionists use the "anti-Semite" label.)

No, despite your clumsy efforts to muddy the waters, there's no comparision between pork consumption and the cloudier issue of interest. Spare me in the future your strawmen.

Your basic requirements are your view as others have pointed out to you in the past by others (after which you scuttled off).

As to your idiotic and peevish little question about "definiing" terms - well idiot, I'm a businessman writing on a blog, I use devout within the scope of its ordinary English language usage, and as I lack divine insight, it's a judgment. So fuck off, I have no time for your wounded, inaccurate whinging on because your sacred oxes are gored.

As to Klaus' question, let me try to respond at some greater length. I personally (and I know Shaheen agrees) feel that there is a lot of entreprenurial energy in region, but not much infrastructure to enable.

In re Ali's note supra, So yes I would say studying sharia is not considered impressive, not to mention that sharia graduates are more likely not to find a job or a university placing.

Those who go on to university, however, will usually work as non-science/math teachers. The other jobs available are muttawa or imams/muezzens in mosques.

This is describing a general problem with respect to the rigidities in the educational systems general throughout the region. And not limited to the religious education versus not - the rigidities between the various pipelines (various ridig tracks) of study and, in my opinion, seriously debilitating and end up wasting a lot of talent.

A serious issue, really, a very serious issue.

I realize the profit-sharing vs. interest distinction is important in determining the halal, and I suppose that the intricacies of determining whether or not a particular form of investment counts as "productive" or "usurious" can be interpreted quite differently by dif fuqaha - given the complexity of contemporary financial products I have to wonder how much classic (call it salafi or the main schools or whatever you wish) fiqh can make of it.

Lounsbury, you said: "Insofar, however, as the Saudi system is not purely 'Islamic" but rather has traditional components - which in fact are extensive - rather clearly plenty of Saudis with money adopt a less than conservative view on financing issues."

I'm curious about what you are referring to as "traditional" vs "conservative."

On the question of whether or not a faqih could credibly pronounce something halal just by being paid for it, haven't the Saudi (not to mention Egyptian) clergy done some version of that for many decades now? Indirectly, of course, through sinecured government positions.

Traditional is as I used it above in that post, 'Western' finance.

As to the rendering of financial products halal, the operations are largely legalistic maneuvers that essentially set up a set of sale mechanics so as to give the appearance of something the hyper-conservative types can call Halal by their lawyerly legalisms.

Insofar as one can trivially calculate rates of interest off of the structures, it quickly becomes clear that most of these products are legal prestidigitation that do nothing to change (other than increase expense) the real economic nature of the transaction.

Now, on one hand, in the real market (as opposed to here), I am all for Islamic products. They're profitable and they make the dupes for legalistic gymnastics (e.g. our convert, Ann supra) happy that they're "doing things according to Sunna."

On the other hand, the honest analytical side of me has to be blunt: it's a charade and frankly economically the Islamic world is far better off taking a rational and reasoned approach to the clear spiriti and intent of the Quranic injunctions, rather than worshipping at the alter of medieval economicly illiterate interpretations and tortured legalisms.

The scary figure one hears being bandied around the Internet is that two-thirds of Saudi PhDs are awarded for religious studies. It would be interesting to see what was examined and why.

Well, there's a serious problem generally in the region with the State institutions churning out tons of graduates with rubbish degrees, especially in Islamic studies.

Mind you, I have nothing against Uni students have Islamic studies, but in order to be useful in the world they need to have something practical as well. Sadly most Uni systems in region are "pillared"; at the BA level one only studies the 'specialisation' (whatever it is, Law, Hard Sciences, Economics, etc) and takes no courses in other areas.

Worse, in most systems by default standard entry tests scores make your Uni placement, such that e.g. that top 10 percent are put in Engineering or Medicine, next 10 percent in Economics.... etc. etc.; typically History and Islamic Studies end up with the dregs (as defined by the standard tests, which of course are problematic).

Of course, within Islamic Studies there is far too rigid quasi-medieval memorisation of now out-dated legal opinion does no one any good. It devalues the area of study (as generally speaking ambitious students don't touch Islamic studies) and tends to produce narrow-minded, back-wards looking gits utterly unprepared for the modern economy.

A thorough going make-over of the region's Uni systems to make them more market driven and above all flexible would do wonders for helping reduce unemployment by producing graduates with some meaningful skills.