I, too, remember being very unhappy with security in Egypt when I visited last year. Armed policemen with big guns were everywhere, but this made me feel less rather than more secure. It didn't help that none of them ever bothered to send people through the ubiquitous metal detectors. Or that the X-Ray machine for carry-on luggage in Cairo airport was unmanned.

When our bus convoy had an escort, this basically consisted of one police jeep riding in front of it. One wonders how useful this would even have been were there to be a serious attack on it. Although we didn't even have sniffer dogs or other security; if someone had brought a bomb on board, they could have blown us up and caused the buses behind us to crash into us. Yet, the security at Alexandria airport wanted to see my passport to allow me to use the bathroom. Great use of state resources all around. Everything looked like it was there for show. Damn police states.

DW: at the risk of sounding like an American youth, well, duh!

even when i was there in 2000 it was like that.

the only reassuring thought was of the -- at times -- conspicuous yet inconspicuous plainclothed policemen wandering around packing sub machine guns under their sportcoats. although i'm not sure how effective that'd have been at 30,000 feet on the Luxor to Cairo route.

My favorite is how at AUC and many of the big hotels, which all have metal detectors, you take off your bag and slide it across the adjacent desk ... more often than makes me feel comfortable, the bag just gets handed right back to you unsearched. Fucking idiocy.

Hah, did we all visit Egypt last year?

When I visited last year, security seemed pretty lax (not long after the bombing). Still, my hotel in Hurghada was fairly disciplined about metal detectors and searches. Not the same in Cairo, they let me walk around the detector because I kept setting it off (this is a recurring problem).

I agree with dubaiwalla, the whole apparatus looked like a show.

This is something I saw with all police forces in the region - at least in the countries that I visited. Personally, I think the core problem is that the police are mainly staffed by your average 'high school dropouts' and people who just couldn't find any other job. The job of policeman or soldier carry with it a stigma just a notch below binman in most of these places.
Which leads me to my other observation. The demand for a specialised private security force is huge. I wonder why no one has picked up on it. It won't solve the state's problems but at least private institutions can have someone they can depend on.
One case in point is saudi aramco, the oil company. They have their own security force, which is more equipped and better trained than the usual run-of-the-mill saudi police - simply because they can afford it. and yes they have sniffer dogs and had for many years.

Lest anyone think security-related idiocy is unique to MENA, right here in my major U.S. city after the 7/7 London bombings, transit security stationed rent-a-cops with dogs in the subway. Except

a) they have only been located at one single station on the line I take every day, the same station every day, and no other stations on that line;
b) the dogs (I don’t even know whether they were sniffer dogs, or just big, imposing, muzzled dogs, and even if they were sniffer dogs, I have no idea whether they were trained for, say, narcotics rather than explosives detection) are just walked up and down the platform by their bored-looking rent-a-cop handlers, rather than inside the train car where they might actually accomplish something; and
c) to the best of my knowledge, the commuter rail stations haven’t even done that much – and one of the commuter rail lines pulls into a station located directly underneath the building housing a major global financial clearinghouse.

Not that I’m advocating X-rays at public transit or cavity searches of passengers, but is this really anything beyond a feel-good measure (or perhaps a lucrative contract for some friend of this notoriously corrupt city administration)? Sigh.

Well, a few notes here.

First, I believe you all are mistaking the "intimidation" layer of security for the real regime apparat. Not the same.

For Egypt (when I was there some years ago things sound like they were a bit tighter than you collectively experienced, but it was several years closer to bombs and the like), it strikes me the real security apparat is the quasi-secret police. The under-covers that one might catch sight of now and again in Cairo. Rather clearly better paid and fed than the conscripts and normal forces.

The visible security forces in Egypt are intimidation. A reminder that Pharoah has lots of little dudes who may be ill-paid, trained and equipped, but can still kick your ass if you come out in the street openly against him.

Of course it strikes me as no surprise that the bells & whistles screening ettiquette breaks down - first of all it is human, second Egypt can't bloody enforce simple basic traffic law. As a general matter, you're not likely to see decent application.

So the regime has to rely on its informers and secret police for real security.

No surprises, the series of bombings in Sinai suggest however that the system, at least there, is not operating. Might be Bedou - Sinia resentment of Cairo and Nile folk mixing with Islamism, might be other things. I wouldn't try to speculate myself given what information is out there at the moment.

However, for Ali K: the Jordanian forces were always quite impressive and cool in their application of force. But the Hashemite Kingdom relies less on Pharonic displays of might than on cooption, so there you have it, different dynamic.

Leb Land barely has a proper government, so one shouldn't expect efficiencies in its security forces (which nevertheless are far better than I might have expected).

Gulf, well seems to me the Emirates has good security.

Maghreb of course is another world entirely, but Tunisia and Morocco are relatively "normal." None of that Egyptian crap.

I don't believe there is the huge need you seem to think for private security, and frankly the State in most places would likely take a real security force in private hands as a threat.

ya abu l-maal,

i entirely agree with you re: why are there no private security forces - having 100% control over security is the sine qua non of mideastern regimes. (the a.r.a.m.c.o. force IS a government force, as a.r.a.m.c.o. is de facto a government entity.)

as for the plainclothes officers - i described that one of them was on my bus. really decent guy, and smart-looking as well. definitively not some conscript fellah. but lest he has the nose of a drug/explosives sniffer dog he wouldn't've been able to know what was in that big package i carried ...

illiterate conscripts with no bullets in their guns don't actually intimidate anyone. and the black-shirted riot police do not patrol tourism sites. as a matter of fact, i believe that most of the white-uniformed "toursim police" might not even be armed.

jordan does, indeed, stand out. and so might other countries. i would like to point out that my post was on why the EGYPTIAN anti-terrorism strategy doesn't work.

the "quasi-secret police" that you mentioned is quite capable. but they are not stationed at the metal-detectors, the entrances to tourism areas (red sea resorts, or pharaonic temples), and they also have not managed to establish an effective intelligence network in the sinai.

egypt actually does rely on the visible, public system of prevention and control. and they fail simply because the personnel isn't good enough.

cheers,

--raf*

So the regime has to rely on its informers and secret police for real security.

True, I did get the impression that invisible surveillance was widespread. Explains the general paranoia re spies and the unfiltered internet access.

Of course, the procedure side is pure garbage, which means stuff that slips by the intel apparatus is going to get executed (rather than potentially being detected and escalated by low-level wankers following a good security protocol).

Raf: and the black-shirted riot police do not patrol tourism sites. as a matter of fact, i believe that most of the white-uniformed "toursim police" might not even be armed.

I didn't see any white-shirts on my trip. I thought the guys in black uniforms carrying automatic weapons were the tourism police. They were all over the place, even stationed outside my cruise ship.

dear e,

no - black-shirts are special police force. (good that they're guarding cruise boats.) white pants/shirts have "tourism police" patches.

cheers,

--raf*

Just remembered - I photographed one of the guys posted outside my ship.

raf and L-
I see your point re private security. But I don't think it is that improbable, especially if done by people with connections - former military maybe. They are not militias afterall, and even those are tolerated in some places.

Ali

Afraid you don't quite understand MENA regimes.

Non-regime controlled security means alternate loyalty structures and alternate power. Militias are tolerated where the government effectively has no power, that is toleration is not toleration. Iraq, Yemen.

ARAMCO is not an exception, it actually proves the piont, it is part of the Ibn Saud's playpen.

Now, some private security in the unarmed rent-a-cop does exist here and there, but this is pretty trivial as compared to the State mechanisms.

On the intimidation factor - no the conscripts are not themselves intimidating (really the contrary at some level), but their sheer numbers and what everyone knows is behind them, that is.

It strikes me the purpose of the poor bastards is simply to be the omnipresent reminder of Pharoah. Symbolic as it were.

Not to effective, I am sure, in actual deterrence, but part of the psychology. Of course they've been out and about so long that withdrawing them might look like weakness, esp. as the generalised contempt for the Pharoah becomes more and more visibile.

Thus my sensation that Egypt may be teetering on the edge of genuine crisis for the fat shrimp eating lump. However, that depends on knowing if the secret police network is functioning. Sinia suggests that at least there, it is not.

BTW, Walla, back in the day, the convoy had a serious armoured jeep up front with a heavy MG and some real soldiers with AK and shot guns. And each bus had a fellow with a shotgun or something.

I guess this has been scaled back.

I recall at the time being most concerned about the Egptian's most undisciplined weapons handling, being sure the greatest threat was one of the lumpy bastards would accidentally discharge his weapon on a bump.

Well, typical Egypt as to the utter disregard of even the most basic discipline in such areas.

One of my Egyptian colleagues at work suggested the Israelis might be responsible for this seeing as they were nearby, and that that country was possibly using terrorist attacks inside Egypt to pressure Mubarak whenever he stepped out of line (in this case, dealing with Hamas). Col/Raf*, perhaps you could tell us more about popular perceptions in Egypt (and neighboring countries) about where the blame for terrorism lies, and how state media outlets tackle the issue and/or fuel any (mis)perceptions.

ya abu l-maal,

yeah ... i remember back in the 90s the car of a minister got ambushed (bomb, i think) just outside a.u.c. green gate (smack downtown cairo) & his bodyguards simply sprayed the surroundings with their submachineguns. lots of wounded. a.u.c. immediately closed its gates & wouldn't let anyone in - not even the wounded. they had to wait 'till the ambulances arrived.

ya d.w.,

well ... i've heard the "it was the israelis trying to stir up unrest" theory, too. that's ALWAYS brought up, regardless where & what happened. as for reception ... well, the mossad actually has some semi-divine image in the region insofar as people attribute almost super-human powers & capabilities to its operatives. that goes so far as that a lot of people (arabs, iranians, etc.) actually think that arabs (read: muslims) are simply incapable of intricate operations ... no 19 young arab boys could've pulled off 9/11 against the u.s. security apparati (yes, plural) and similar.

quite a few of my friends think that usama bin ladin doesn't exist but is a c.i.a. invention. they also hold it to be at least 50/50 possible that the moon landings never happened. "capricorn one", anyone ...?

but in this particular case - the egyptians in the nile valley have no trouble perceiving the sinai bedouin as, let's say, "less than completely loyal" to the state. the sinai is egypt's "wild west" - with hashish fields and smuggling across the israeli border, and god-only-knows being smuggled in across the gulf of aqaba from saudi arabia ...

so while nobody would ever argue against the "the israelis did it" thesis, most people think that it was islamists, homegrown or otherwise.

cheers,

--raf*

Well, first, Walla, my basic working premise when approaching things Egyptian is that all Egyptians are clowns and gullible fools.

That may be a bit leaning to the prejudiced side, but I've found it a useful rule of thumb. These are, after all, a people who actually parrot the Umm ad-Dunya crap with feeling. They also turn out to watch those grotesque Adel Imam movies. A nation afflicted with such poor taste can't be trusted.

Further, obviously the idea this was an Israeli operation is ... well, stupid.

However, as the Egyptian media continually flogs the most vulgar, illogical Israeli conspiracy, that most of the population is dim and desperately wants to believe outsiders are causing its problems (certainly one has to have some sympathy for the idea, given the massive support the Pharoah gets from the US and others).... I'd say it's fairly common.

In my opinion Egypt is particularly grotesque in this area, but it happens elsewhere. I leave the Maghreb out as they're far away and merely parrot what the Easterners write on these issues.

For their own terror, I haven't ever seen it blamed on the Israelis.

"watch those grotesque Adel Imam movies"

Hey, I liked Hello America.

But I am America-centric.

ya abu l-maal,

i think that "irhaab wa kebaab" (terrorism & kebab) is required watching for everyone interested in m.e.n.a. affairs.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107227/

brilliant depiction of everything that's wrong with egypt. (including its quality of films.)

--raf*

Yeah, I have seen it. Okay, it's watchable unlike most of his films.

L-
My point about aramco is that theirs is not some kind of parallel police force (Well, they do issue parking tickets inside company property but that is another matter). Their entire mission is 'securing' company property. They are reactive not proactive. I do not see how this can be seen as infringement on state rights. I realise that mena rulers are not a subtle bunch, but are they really this paranoid?
What other choice does a company have other than depend on the incompetent police or the more incompetent unarmed 'doormen' rent-a-cops? especially if they are not big enough to afford their own security.
The aramco force was created precisely because the company realised that the regular police is not up to scratch. And remember this was way before the company was owned by the state. Back then it *was* an independent force - and it still is in many respects. I just do not see why this has not been duplicated.
I guess we'll disagree on this but I clearly see a market.

As for israeli conspiracy theories. Personally, I have seen this idea spouted by egyptians more than any others - even palestinians. I wonder why. Is there a reason other than 'all Egyptians are clowns and gullible fools.'?

The thing about el irhab wel kebab is that it was done long before terrorism was 'fashionable' if you will. And to my surprise I have seen ideas in that movie that I then saw again in many western hostage-type movies. Just look at the recently released Inside Man.

Ali K

My point about aramco is that theirs is not some kind of parallel police force (Well, they do issue parking tickets inside company property but that is another matter). Their entire mission is 'securing' company property. They are reactive not proactive. I do not see how this can be seen as infringement on state rights. I realise that mena rulers are not a subtle bunch, but are they really this paranoid?

Depends, but all things being equal, yes.

Aramco is a special case, a state within a state almost (well SONATRACH is more properly this case).

Some rent-a-cops you certainly see in say Morocco, where things are more relaxed, but nothing like a full out security force.

In the final analysis, no government in region is going to permit a substantive private force unless it is too weak to prevent it. E.g Iraq, Yemen.

What other choice does a company have other than depend on the incompetent police or the more incompetent unarmed 'doormen' rent-a-cops?

None, but frankly I don't see much demand.

The only private assets that are in serious danger from terrorism are those that the government will insist on proteting - e.g. oil facilities, 5 stars.

I don't see much of a market beyond that, ordinary crime rates are generally low, and rent-a-cop doormen suffice for most purposes.

I should note in Morocco I have seen more sophisticated (unarmed) private security at tourist facilities.

But that seems exceptional to me.

especially if they are not big enough to afford their own security.

In these cases they really don't need the security.

The aramco force was created precisely because the company realised that the regular police is not up to scratch. And remember this was way before the company was owned by the state. Back then it *was* an independent force - and it still is in many respects. I just do not see why this has not been duplicated.

Well, I don't know the ARAMCO force history so I am afraid I can't argue the point very well - although if the force was created during concession period then there were very particular, almost neo-colonial conditions behind that.

Otherwise, I frankly think you're overestimating the demand. Terror attacks are well beyond what most firms in region face, as a risk, and generally speaking a private firm is not going to want to take on such an expense.

The only firms that have the scope to take on this kind of expense are major hydrocarbon producers, and multinationals in primary materials production. Some limited scope is certainly identifiable at very high end tourism, where the margins may be able to support extra security.

I guess we'll disagree on this but I clearly see a market.

Well, you're wrong. At least as I understand how you're framing the proposition (as semi private armed forces).

Unarmed security, what we call in French guardinage, there is a market for that, but again private.

As for israeli conspiracy theories. Personally, I have seen this idea spouted by egyptians more than any others - even palestinians. I wonder why. Is there a reason other than 'all Egyptians are clowns and gullible fools

Well, re Egyptian media of all stripes spends a lot of energy fulminating about Israeli plots and the like. There is, I think, a lot of energy poured into finding excuses for why the Mother of the Earth nation has gone wrong, and obviously the Israelis are a great scapegoat. Strikes me that a large number of Egyptians half believe the tripe. Not entirely, but it's something some cling to in part.

However, I have little love of Egypt or Egyptians so perhaps a more sympathetic observer.

The police in Egypt wear black in the winter and white in the summer. They recently changed from black to white - it is a sign of spring in Egypt - like the UPS guys breaking out the shorts (I remember an Onion article about that once).

Re Adel Imam - I hate him too although I did like Irhab wa Kabab. His mannerisms are annoying. I saw a funny imitation of him on Egyptian TV recently where the guy widened his eyes and blinked very deliberately and showed his teeth in exactly the same way and though he looked nothing like him it was so easy to see who he was imitating.

Egyptian comedy is so slapstick, that all the big comedians end up being caricatures of themselves. I think that happened to Adel Imam.

Yes, too many Egyptians will believe any weird and silly sounding conspiracy involving Jews. The government has done little to combat this because as you say it is a great distraction from its own weaknesses or corruption or whatever.

It sounds like much of the "complaining" here is about the inefficiency of the Egyptian security apparatus when it comes to terrorism. Well, I guess that if it was possible to eliminate terrorism, Israelis would have bought the recipe a long time ago. You live with terrorism, you try to deal politically with its root causes to reduce it to the level of a small nuisance and that's it. Cops anywhere won't do a thing to improve your security. They are semi-illiterates everywhere I've been, and the difference you can see from a country to another only reflects the level of the society's development. No amount of additional security measures will reduce terrorism. Any additional something to protect you will only be a pain on your tax sheet and trample on your breathing space.

On the other hand, the European pensioner who gets his first trip out of his village or the stupid get-a-culture-at-Club-Med honkey needs to see security not to piss in his pants and keep coming. So, in that sense, that Mohamed in his dusty uniform and his dog fulfill their purpose.

dear anna,

i am quite certain that the riot police does not wear white uniforms when breaking up demonstrations in summer. conversely, i've seen white-clad "tourism & antiquties" police at the pyramids in winter.

i think eerie's picture was not taken in "winter" - yet the armed policeman (with a "tourism & antiquities" patch) is wearing black.

it might be that the "white in summer, black in winter" applies to regular cops, but neither special forces (like riot police and the armed tourism police) or the unarmed tourism police that hangs around the pyramids & the like.

--raf*

ps: maybe YOU could answer the question - is it true that the soldiers posted throughout cairo have no bullets in their ak47 'cause the gov't is paranoid that they'd congregate & storm the presidential palace? i've heard that story from so many sources, it's almost too ubiquitous to be an urban myth.

Re Adel Imam-
The guy used to be good. But as you said he became a caricature. He just fell into a rut of repetitiveness as he got older.
But there was once a time when he did decent movies. I remember in particular the one where he plays an egyptian villager who gets lots in Rome and ends up doing italian porn films. Can you say risque? There were some profound moments in that film.
He did also some more abstract stuff. I remember one movie where he was living beside a rail track. I could not for the life of me follow the plot of that movie.
There's also el ins wel jinn (Humans and Jinn). I think that was the first arabic horror movie, even though it wasnt that good.
If there's any egyptian who's overrated it must be youssef chahine.

The Arab actor I most respect is Duraid Lahham. His movie el hudood (The Borders) alone gives him this honour. It is by far the best arabic movie of all time - to me at least. Not to mention his poignant plays. He just drifted off out of the lime light though. I wonder where he is now.

" almost too ubiquitous to be an urban myth."

raf* --

I think too much ubiquity is the very measure of an urban myth. Not a bug, but a feature.

Raf* you are right about the uniforms - I did not see footage of the Dahab incident but they were probably tourism police. The ones I see in the Cairo areas seem to always wear black. The security police (riot police) (Arabic amn markazy) seem to always wear black too. I work down the street from the Wafd headquarters and we had riot police here for a few months. But I have not watched out for their summer uniform. I hope for their own sake they dont' have to wear black in the heat of the summer.

I have seen a lot of the police that guard banks, etc. don't seem to have ammunition in their guns. I am not very good at noticing these things but had it pointed out to me by my husband who was in the Egyptian military service in the 80s. I assume the urban myth explanation may have a kernel of truth. The riot police seemed to mostly be armed with British looking baton things. As the riot police are mostly young people from the country doing military service yes the govt is scared of them and does all it can to keep them separated and locked down. They ride in cars that look like they are built for prisoners and are kept housed at locked down camps.

At times the riot police have actually refused orders to put down civil unrest (such as the 70s during the bread riots). And also recently they were upset about not getting paid or something and threatened to go on strike. So yeah the govt worries about them.

I agree Youssef Chahine is way overrated. El Hudud was a good film. I saw the Adel Imam movie about the porn movies in Italy, it was actually kind of funny. Speaking of movies about porn, the funniest Egyptian movie I have seen in a long while is one called "cultural film" about these guys trying to watch a porn video and not finding a place to watch it.

Shaheen's comments, as usual are wise. At some level, I would suppose that the complaint (I don't necessarily share it) or critique is that the Egyptian security Apparat is monstrous and indeed stomping on people's breathing space, and not adding "value" in terms of protection against terror for the average citizen.

On the other hand, the dusty little bastards may be useful for "Mary, from Birmingham" who just bought some nice plastic pyramids for bridge club, to believe security is ubiquitous.

Regardless, the sensation Pharoah has a seriously emerging issue is there for me.

ya shaheen w-abu l-maal,

well ... what pisses me off is that the state also believes that it's "we'll use the state security forces" approach actually will keep the tourist spots safe. i am under no illusion as to whether any measure (or a combination of a few) can result in 100% security. but vigilant personnel is a pretty good deterrent. guess why there are no attempts to blow up israeli airplanes from on-board?

the penetration of israeli facilities always involved laxness on the side of the israelis. and that cursed fencewallthingy actually works. the problem with it is not efficacy but location.

sadly, i do have first-hand experience of how - in this case - egyptian tourism & state institutions were very interested in involving the private sector in enhancing security ... but nothing ever came out of it 'cause the bureaucracy simply ground any initiatives to a halt. i left with the impression that the people involved - state & tourism reps - don't quite feel the personal, driving need to improve things ... PARTICULARLY as there is a state security apparatus that keeps saying "we'll deal with it" and is paid by public funds.

have you all noticed how egypt's tourism p.r. efforts are now concentrating on hawking it as an "all beach all the time" destination and do not even mention the "pharaonic heritage" anymore? ideally, the tourists would just be flown into the fenced-off enclaves of sharm or hurghada. that way they would also never see the shambles that make up most of today's egypt ...

--raf*

ps: the attacks on the m.n.f. in al-'arish and that attack on a police checkpoint in the delta north-east of cairo MAY be connected to each other & the dahab attacks. if they ARE ... then "la vache qui ris" might, indeed, be facing a seriously emerging issue.

Raf-
"sadly, i do have first-hand experience of how - in this case - egyptian tourism & state institutions were very interested in involving the private sector in enhancing security ... but nothing ever came out of it 'cause the bureaucracy simply ground any initiatives to a halt."

So you do agree with me that there is a need for it, just that the bureaucracies won't allow it to happen.

Ali K

I believe there's a bit of confusion here as to "need" and the like on private security.

My comments were directed toward what I see as real market demand, in the context of current market realities.

I do not see, in this context

al Faqih Raf Bey

well ... what pisses me off is that the state also believes that it's "we'll use the state security forces" approach actually will keep the tourist spots safe.

Well, I am not sure the State, in this case Egypt, actually believes this, but rather the state which the core of the State, the Security Aparat is willing to tolerate.

Above all in Egypt.

As a general matter in such situations, the State will be less permissive as its own efficacity in security declines, until it reaches the tipping point. (imagine the graph if you will)

i am under no illusion as to whether any measure (or a combination of a few) can result in 100% security. but vigilant personnel is a pretty good deterrent. .... the penetration of israeli facilities always involved laxness on the side of the israelis. and that cursed fencewallthingy actually works. the problem with it is not efficacy but location.

A fair statement, although with all such systems, the higher the flow, the lower the efficacity because the cost/benefit of close screening.

sadly, i do have first-hand experience of how - in this case - egyptian tourism & state institutions were very interested in involving the private sector in enhancing security ... but nothing ever came out of it 'cause the bureaucracy simply ground any initiatives to a halt. i left with the impression that the people involved - state & tourism reps - don't quite feel the personal, driving need to improve things ... PARTICULARLY as there is a state security apparatus that keeps saying "we'll deal with it" and is paid by public funds.

Well, of course.

First, what you describe supra is a general problem for all private enterprise in Egypt. The bureaucracy is grinding, obstructionist and costly to overcome. In the meantime, the real power for decision making doesn't lie with tourism officials, but the Security Apparat.

Marry those two, and what do you get?

have you all noticed how egypt's tourism p.r. efforts are now concentrating on hawking it as an "all beach all the time" destination and do not even mention the "pharaonic heritage" anymore? ideally, the tourists would just be flown into the fenced-off enclaves of sharm or hurghada. that way they would also never see the shambles that make up most of today's egypt ...

Right, indeed. Walling off the problem.

ps: the attacks on the m.n.f. in al-'arish and that attack on a police checkpoint in the delta north-east of cairo MAY be connected to each other & the dahab attacks. if they ARE ... then "la vache qui ris" might, indeed, be facing a seriously emerging issue.

Vache qui rit.

My gut is that this is indeed a seriously emerging issue.

After Alexandria - which clearly indicated even the normally passive Copts are at a boil - and the Pharoah's transparent shenanigans with the elections, plus the overall mood of frustration.

It's a good time to see this emerge I think.

Will it?

Dunno, I haven't Egyptian ears anymore. But my gut says it is very possible.

Raf

the penetration of israeli facilities always involved laxness on the side of the israelis.

Which further makes my point: you will be lax sometimes, whatever you do. I remember one of the Palestinian militants of the 70s counting how she passed bombs hidden in her tits to the plane. Well, those were the 70s you'd say, but I've taken El-3al, and I can tell you that despite them not being lax with me at all, anyone with enough twists can make it through. They don't check behind testicles for example, and many things can escape metal detectors.

and that cursed fencewallthingy actually works. the problem with it is not efficacy but location

Actually it doesn't Raf. One of the bloodiest bombings of those last years involved a Haifan widow. Many among the bombers are definitely NOT from the walled areas.

Israel has chosen a military response, automatically eliminating Hamas heads. That has had an impact indeed, much more so than the wall which is far from being complete anyway and whose real purpose is borders and separation, not security. But has Israel been able to completely eliminate the threat? Certainly not, as news can remind us from time to time, and it won't.

Now, you have several options to reduce the terrorist threat, but Israel's military choice is definitely not applicable to Egypt. Who are you going to kill in Egypt? Where are they terrorist brains? Besides, Israel's reponse is probably not the most adapted. It has a great economic cost, that it's willing to pay only because of its current war mindset and because the cost of political concessions is higher from its traditionally expansionist approach. Egypt has nothing of all that. Egypt is more comparable to Spain and its ETA problem. There are no security measures against ETA, you live like in any normal democratic state at peace. Spaniards just decided to stop persecution after Franco, they let Basque nationalism freely express itself, and ETA just became marginal. The associated nuisance is probably at the bottom of the list of causes of death in Spain and people just learnt to live with it.

There are no security measures against ETA
I would take minor exception to this. Even though I visited Spain during ETA's ceasefire, the Guardia Civil was far more visible than security forces in, say, France or Germany. But yes, they certainly weren't as pervasive or intrusive as their Egyptian counterparts, and they never gave me the impression I ought to actively worry.

Of course, ETA doesn't try to kill hundreds of random people in crowded places, so threat perceptions might vary.

I think Dubaiwalla makes a good point there, in re ETA behaviour.

That makes the Spanish situ rather different.

However, at the same time, one can credit Spanish security measures against ETA are at once less intrusive than Egypt's ostentatious "security" and more efficient.

Regardless, I think we can all agree that security follows the same laws of diminishing returns that any human activity does, and that it is impossible to achieve perfect security.

In many ways I think we're arguing about the wrong thing here.

The fundamentals are in Egypt about two questions:

First, the objective of the visible security presence. I argue that it is about intimidation, not actual efficacity, and the intimidation is more about regime security than public safety.

Second, the efficacity if the regime's real security measures, the secret police and informant network. (This second point being my opinion and not an overly informed one at that).

Dubaiwalla, Sheikh Lounsbury,

I lived in both France and Spain - and still do maintain an extensive contact and spend much time there. The Guardia civil is anything but more visible than the French military and CRS in airports, subways, and every public place affected by the vigipirate plan. In fact, France's security forces are way more visible than Spain's.

ETA doesn't try to kill hundreds of random people in crowded places, so threat perceptions might vary

More accurately, it doesn't anymore, today ya3ni - because it can't, it has been totally marginalized and lacks the logistics to do anything significant besides your isolated murder once in a while. But it did when it could, car bombings in cities and all in the 70s and the 80s. This is what I mean when I say you reduce it to the level of a small nuisance. The Spanish success lies in channeling Basque nationalism and giving it other ways of expression than violence.

Egypt's security forces are I guess, just like the rest of Arab countries'. A bit for the touristic show off (the part that does the checkpoints in touristic areas and all) as I said earlier. Another bit (outside touristic areas) is probably due to the very nature of those bully regimes. Intimidation? Probably. But much inertia too: there are cops everywhere because that's the way it's always been with big guys like us. I'm not sure there's much thinking process behind it.

not that i usually rise to the bait, but, i'm pretty sure that Iran does NOT have the bomb. well, unless someone sold/gave it to them. domestic production is still not possible.

also, i believe it should be "reactorS"

ah, details.

dear all,

the 2nd to last comment was an incitement to violence. as the author of this article i am the primary person responsible for this comment thread.

i have deleted the comment.

to the author: take your propaganda elsewhere. you're not welcome here.

--raf*