I agree that the guestworker bit was very well done (and probably stood out more for those with any exposure to the region). It ended up being the storyline I thought about the most after seeing the movie.

There were hundreds of little details that suggested a lot of homework being done behind the scenes (e.g. that tiny but telling bit about the group pushing for Iran's liberation). I want to see the movie again for that very reason.

I also thought that earnest but patronizing energy analyst was a bit like that guy from The Quiet American.

Indeed, lots of very good details, clearly a lot of hard work was put in. Right into getting the Arabic dialects right. The sort of thing I appreciate.

The earnest but patronising energy analyst was also spot on. A bit like the Quiet American. A bit like I used to be before I lost my virginity to this region.

Ah, something to look forward to then.

dear L,

here's an explanation of the title:

"Turns out only the most dedicated policy wonks will possess that particular bit of foreknowledge: D.C. think tanks use the word to represent the quixotic, arguably foolhardy notion of a Middle East reshaped more to the West's liking."

Found it in nerve.com's movie review.

haven't seen it yet. will watch it soon & let you know about the credibility of the persian. on that note, it's NOT "farsi", just as it's "french" and not "francais", "arabic" (not "'arabii"), "russian" (not "po-russkii"), "german" (not "deutsch"), etc.pp.

there's even a decision of the north american association of persian teachers on that subject.

--raf*

dear L,

robert baer explains the term "syriana" here.

cheers,

--raf*

Anyone spot me in it?

Airport scene, backpack, going up and down and escalator, dazzling beauty?!

My dear fellow.

It's fucking Farsi to me and it will so remain. Persian for me are cats, idiots who want to restore old empires and arch fools.

So its Farsi.

As to the explanation of the title: stupid decision. Title is bloody stupid.

And rugs..

dear L,

your comment is SUCH a relief. had already contemplated the horrible scenario of you having gone soft. wheeew ...

glad you got your spirits back.

--raf*

I just needed the proper motivation.

But I don't like the bloody rugs.

dear L,

"proper motivation"? well, i always thought only wannabe-indigenous 1st-year islamic studies students would say "farsi", and maybe also ignorant gits from beyond the big blue.

now it looks like it's them ... and you.

sad, sad indeed.

--raf*

Odd that Siddig would muff his Arabic - isn't he half-Egyptian or something? (Maybe familiarity bred contempt and he didn't listen to the dialogue coach as closely as Clooney did or something.) Wonder if they'll show it in Beirut. Probably. (Wonder if they would have showed it a year ago...)

I wouldn't say Siddig muffed his lines, that would be exagerating. However, I found his delivery poor several times.

Re Farsi: I have never heard someone refer to Farsi as Persian unless they were part of that absurd coterie of "Persian" Iranian exiles who like to pretend the entire Islamic history of the country did not exist, etc. etc. Ridiculous gits, just like the idiot Maroni lebs who claim to be Phonecians and not Arabs or whatever, to use a point of illustration. Tripe.

Persian is an out of date and ridiculous word to use for the language. Farsi is a fine and useful word. PhD students I know use it, I use it, lots of others not at all ignorant nor wanna be use it.

So, while perhaps your experience is different, I nevertheless find the idea of saying "Persian" for Farsi silly.

it's NOT "farsi", just as it's "french" and not "francais", "arabic" not "'arabii"), "russian" (not "po-russkii"), "german" (not "deutsch"), etc.pp.

In that case, you should be calling the language IRANIAN since it is spoken in IRAN. Keep up with the times, boy. It's not 1934.

I nevertheless find the idea of saying "Persian" for Farsi silly.

I will, however, say a word in defence of "Persian." A number of Iranians who are neither fools nor would-be-empire-builders call themselves "Persian" and for good reason. A sad but significant minority of Americans become wary or even overtly hostile when they discover someone is from "Eye-ran." Fortunately, the vast majority of this type of people have the geographical and historical awareness of tree squirrels and never figure out that "Persian" is a quaint synonym for "Iranian."

Point well taken.

Regardless, this is a silly conversation, Persia, Parsi, Farsi, Shmarsi.

I nevertheless find the idea of saying "Persian" for Farsi silly.

I'm no Persian/Farsi/Iran expert, but to me Farsi is a more precise term than Persian - speakers of other related C. Asian languages sometimes also refer to their languages (Tajik, etc) as Persian languages or dialects. At least when one refers to Farsi, it's somewhat clearer that one is referring to the language spoken in Iran.

Well now that we have put to bed the Faris/Parsi/Persian silliness, it appears I managed to say nothing of other interest.

Pity.

BTW, I looked up Siddig, his father is Sudanese and his mum is English. Now I think I understand why I found his Arabic to be odd. (again not bad per se, but I still think he gargled some lines)

dear all-

you made me do it:

Persian, the more widely used name of the language in English, is an Anglicized form derived from Latin *Persianus,

The Academy of Persian Language and Literature as well as many lexicographers have announced that "Farsi" is not the appropriate term to use for the Persian language in English.

(Wikipedia)

OF COURSE, you can call it what you want. you can also spell "potato" with an "e" at the end.

btw, dear anonymous, i'm a trained historian ... in the history of the middle east ... and taught undergrad & grad courses on the subject. here's a tidbit of information for you: when countries' names change, the names of the languages spoken there don't necessarily change as well. come to think of it, here's another one: according to your logic, "german" shouldn't be called "german", but "deutschlandian", no? and one more question: until 1991, did you call "russian" and "ukrainian" & all those other languages of that region then "sovietunionian"?

it's a question of nomenclature, not of what "feels right". of course, y'all are free to play the patronizing westerner who is telling them oriental ayraaniyuns what they should be calling their language.

in the meantime, i will continue to keep this on a rational level, you know, with well-sourced statements.

--raf*

Eva Luna is correct. Farsi is a more precise term than Persian. Some Persian "languages" are semi-mutually comprehensible and can be thought of as dialects. Others, for example, Hazaragi, aren't really much closer to Farsi than English is to Dutch.

dear all-

the "net" ate the full wikipedia quotation (because of a poiny bracket in it).

here it is:

"Persian, the more widely used name of the language in English, is an Anglicized form derived from Latin *Persianus, Latin "Persia", Greek "Persis", a hellenized form of Old Persian "Parsa". Farsi is the Arabicized form of Parsi, due to a lack of the /p/ phoneme in Standard Arabic. Its use in the English language is very recent (since the 1970s). Native Persian speakers typically call it "Fârsi" in modern usage. ISO (International Organization for Standardization), the Academy of Persian Language and Literature, and many other sources call the language "Persian". The government of Afghanistan uses both "Dari" and "Persian" in English communications.

The Academy of Persian Language and Literature as well as many lexicographers have announced that "Farsi" is not the appropriate term to use for the Persian language in English."

maybe they'll change it.

on that note - dear anonymous - what do you call all the various arabic dialects, quite a few of which are mutually incomprehensible?

--raf*

My dear Raf:

There is a word for this "conversation."

Boring. Or tedious.

Rather, put it this way, a bunch of bloody academics can say whatever the bloody hell they want. Farsi it is for me, Farsi it will be. I find the posturing otherwise unconvincing and will go with the usage I most often have encountered in the past decade.

Usage wins.

Now, no more of this idiotic, pointless conversation. Bitch about Siddig or something.

dear L,

"usage wins" ... interesting logic.

your post, your call.

alexander "sid" siddig ain't worth bitchin' about. i'd just like to direct the esteemed reader to the actor's own homepage. yes, it's called "sid city". and it does sprout such gems as "according to Sid, 'El' means 'the son of'" ...

'nuff said.

--raf*

I enjoyed watching Siddig in this movie, just as I enjoyed him in Kingdom of Heaven (L, did you ever get around to seeing that?). He's good at playing elegant, thoughtful types.

Usage wins is a statement of fact, not logic.

Regardless, I did see Kingdom of Heaven (although dubbed, which was annoying) and he was very good. I thought he was good in Syriana, but as that "El = son of" suggests, his Arabic was sometimes less than what it might have been.

Mere whinging on about small detials, however.

While reading this exchange, at some point I lost the will to live.

on that note - dear anonymous - what do you call all the various arabic dialects, quite a few of which are mutually incomprehensible?

Historian you may be, but linguist you ain't.

When people speak casually of "speaking Arabic" they are, of course, referring to Modern Standard Arabic just when people speaking Chinese, they are typically referring to Mandarin.

Chinese is, in fact, an excellent example. Chinese is really a language family rather than a language. People who actually speak "Chinese" usually specify that they speak Mandarin or Cantonese or whatever because it makes quite a difference. Most people in Hong Kong, for example, speak Cantonese and Cantonese is so different from Mandarin that they communicate with other "Chinese speakers" in China using English.

The same thing is true of "Arabic," though Arabic dialects are far more mutually intelligible than Chinese. If you want to use "Arabic" as short hand for Modern Standard Arabic, that's fine. But if you mean Egyptian or Saidi it's best to specify Egyptian or Saidi. In any event, it's perfectly correct to do so.

The same thing is true with "Persian" and "Farsi." You can use Persian to mean Farsi but Persian is really a group rather than a language. If you mean to say someone is speaking Farsi, then by all means, it's perfectly correct to say so.

As for The Academy of Persian Language and Literature, as they are studying all the Persian languages and dialects rather than just Farsi, they're correct to say that you shouldn't use "Farsi" for "Persian." But that's a different proposition from specifying that someone is speaking Farsi, especially when you are criticizing their accent.

I do vouch for the "Persian" euphemism. True story in Texas many years ago:

Me -- white guy in cab to driver: So where you from?

Driver: (tensed) Um, Persia.

Me: Oh Iran, you can say that, it's ok. From Tehran?

Driver (relaxing): Yeah.
_____

Witnessed conversation in Texas a few years earlier during hostage crisis.

Drunk redneck acquaintance to Filipino-American student: You're not Eye-ranian are you? Because if you were, I'd have to beat you up.

Filipino-American student (who probably could have won the fight): Why the hell would you do that?

Redneck, shrugging non-aggressively: Just gotta.

Nothing bad happened, other than that.
___________

Anyway the language name debate can get tedious, try the "Gaelic versus Irish" debate for nationalism gone stupid.
___________

Havent seen Syriana and can't find the name's explanation on the link, if anyone can summarize as the name is off-putting and unhelpful, it would be helpful.

Good Sirs,
Syriana. I ref. Adam Horschild's excellent 'King Leopold's Ghost' as a wholly contemporary description of the Gulf of Guinea today in its dealings with the big oil melange.
The companies, often national companies, holding the strategic reserves (quite different from the oil majors) are joined at the hip with government so foreign policy is built-in.
And while foreign affaris is the art of the least odiferous compromise; the semblance of elegance and tidiness does sometimes fall down the cracks, particularly in the least illuminated regions.
"Nasty, brutish and short" should refer to the trajectories of special advisors who manipulate such scenarios. Their networks are seldom as deep as they are lofty, and thus the curse of intrigue is rooted.
A trite truism, but the truth is nastier than fiction and impossible to film, unless one resorts to disturbing allegory.
Adieu.

secretdubai,

The language, just like the ethnicity, has been called Persian forver. Your sir, are an idiot!

My dear Mani:

Don't be an insufferable moron or worse, one of those "It's Persia" people. Persia no longer exists, the name changed and that's that. (Of course it has not, as a matter of fact, been called "Persia" forever, whatever idiot nationalists want to believe)

Now fuck off you stupid git.

glad i missed the heated debate last month on persia/iran/farci/blahblah.

my roommate over the summer was from Tehran. She was a very nice girl. getting her PhD in something like chemical geography. she refered to it half and half as farci and persian. also, she called it iran all the time. and, on a side note, her mother was quite sweet having come to stay with us for a month.

L: i know you'll be dissapointed, but I didn't catch the differences in the dialects. now, to be fair, the sound was very low-quality and i was somewhat intoxicated, however, it all sounded east of egypt to me!

and while we're on explosions, they really should have had a big enough budget to blow up a tanker. that was LPG, right? growing up so far away from major oil ports has left me at somewhat of a disadvantage.

and finally, touching on the whole P/F/I thing, stop being so politically correct! it's annoying!

I saw the movie. George Clooney only said three sentences in Farsi. First one was fairly well-spoken for a foreigner where he says "I was looking for the bathroom". The second one, saying "You don't speak Farsi", required a native Farsi speaker like me to rewind once or twice because it was completely with an English intonation. The third one, "..do you, you son of a goat", well I have listened to it like 20 times and still can't tell what it is he's trying to say because we don't even have such a curse in Farsi. Son of a goat??? Help me out here fellow Iranians (a.k.a. Persians, etc.)

Arash

Thanks for the late but useful comment.

Son of a goat, well, I wouldn't get hung up on that, one can make up insults sometimes. I might say something like that in Arabic if I were suddenly possessed by creativeness or something else (or thought the standard charmoutah and the like just didn't get what I wanted).

So, Clooney did okay with his farsi.

I would note, by the way, for those still reading, that having recently seen Kingdom of Heaven I can attest that Siddig's Arabic is not very good (or perhaps in the alternative, marked heavily by some bizarre Soudani accent, not to be a snob).

Can anyone tell me where the man w/ the blue/green eyes who runs into Clooney in Tehran and befriends the Pakistani boys in the Gulf could be from? He doesn's speak Farsi/Persian (let's not start that debate again) but speaks Urdu (I'm assuming b/c the boys do not speak Arabic). I speak none of these languages, so any thoughts would be appreciated.

He's Egyptian and speaks in both Egyptian dialect at times, and Formal Arabic. He is the "blue eyed Egyptian" the Agency mentions. The boys do speak Arabic, just not well. The conversation where the younger beardless boy seeks employment on a boat is entirely in Arabic - presumably the dishdash wearing boat owner is an assimlated Pakistani. The boy's Arabic, when he speaks, is shakey.

Thanks. If I may, perhaps you could also help me w/ another question that's been nagging me. I'm afraid it is unrelated to the film. I overheard a conversation be/ two students (one from Afghanistan and the other from Pakistan). What could they have been speaking to one another? I tried to find an answer online but there seem to be quite a few possibilities (Dari, Gawar-Bati, Hazaragi, etc.). Unfortunately, I don't know where specifically they are from within their respective countries. That would probably help. I guess I could have asked but as a shy Filipina-American, I couldn't bring myself to interrupt their conversation. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Just about anything. Dari, Pashtun. Pashtun would seem more likely, but really on this info it's a fool's game to say.

It's best not to interrupt conversations in other langauges.

I should have noted, btw, that most conversations between the boys and in general among the guest workers are in a Paki language, I presume Urdu but whatever language they have in common.